too much positive caster

The steering axis of a shopping cart wheel is set forward of where the wheel contacts the ground. 02-18-2019 #3. cornfedbill. One common way to adjust caster is to install an offset caster bush. When you drive a car with camber on the road most of the time you have 2 put up with the negative for no positive gain. This is a big topic that I don't have a ton of time to get into at the moment, but hopefully those comments are helpful. Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). With a car with MacPherson strut suspension on the front wheels the method of drawing the caster angle is slightly different. Straight ahead tracking is better with pos. The caster also affects the camber. On most vehicles it's common to have slightly more negative camber (0.8 - 1.3°) in the rear to reduce the chances of oversteer (loss of grip in rear). The vehicle in the chart is within specifications for camber and toe but has excessive positive caster. I think you're confusing caster with camber, and maybe even toe. For example, a tire wear pattern called feathering can result from a combination of too much caster with incorrect toe settings. Toe-in is when the leading part of the tire is turned inwards towards the center of the car. I thought it was subframe bushes as … It has a large effect on how the car reacts to steering inputs as well as on tire wear. Thread in 'Technical Questions' started by Mike@TDSW, Feb 22, 2011. The caster angle or castor angle is the angular displacement of the steering axis from the vertical axis of a steered wheel in a car, motorcycle, bicycle, other vehicle or a vessel, measured in the longitudinal direction. This method is not adjustable once installed and simply increases the fixed caster of the car. The simplest way to figure out if your using enough, or too much camber, is by examining tire wear. Hopefully, these articles will help. If you have too much positive caster, the vehicle will be harder to turn. Caster is the measure of how far forward or behind the steering axis is to the verticle axis, viewed from the side. These are often sold with the main purpose to be camber adjustable. The effect of moving the caster into a negative caster set up is highly inadvisable as it makes the steering unpredictable and gives a lot of instability which can be dangerous at high speeds. Again, I recommend consulting an expert for further assistance on your vintage setup. Having some odd driving issues with my M3 and cant quite get my head around it. Too much caster (positive caster) and the front of the car will understeer more, too little (negative caster) and you will get oversteer handling characteristics. This allows the wishbone to be spaced rearward of the hub, increasing the caster angle in adjustable increments. Excessive camber on a road car makes it drive crap. We will never spam, sell, or do annoying things with it ... ever. Turning the wheel lifts the front end a little, and releasing the wheel allows the weight of the vehicle to push back down, assisting return to center. In a road car, this would mean that the top of the coilover would be pushed towards the rear of the car. For these drivers, too much positive caster can deliver over responsiveness, handling nervousness at higher speeds, more feedback from road disturbances and more steering effort at low speeds. Any input would be appreciated Thanks. The forks point forward at the bottom and slope backward at the top. As you increase positive caster the steering will get heavier also, but with modern power steering systems this is rarely a problem. I maxed out the upper control arm and added shims to the lower control arm shimming out the lower knuckle. Feb 27, 2020 at 12:44 PM #2 #2. Modified steering geometries (spindles, tie rods, etc.) Sub_Par, Dec 18, … Camber . Also, if you’re normally driving on uneven roads or surfaces, then you will want the added stability that positive cambers provide. MatthewPTguy Not a new member. The driving effect of the positive caster can be noticed as you’re driving forward. Consequently, too much positive camber causes wear on the outside edge. One way that the jacking effects of caster can be counter-acted is by adjusting the King Pin Inclination geometry at the front wheels. Later, I took it to place that had old Bear alignment equipment to see if they could adjust that out. Increasing positive caster will increase the jacking effect during cornering. And too much caster is going to increase that angle in the same direction that lifting does (i.e., the pinion is pointing lower than at the TC output). Joined: Feb 7, 2006 Posts: 8,264 Likes Received: 1 Location: Somerset. It is done by placing the front wheels of your car on some turning plates that have the scale set to 0 degrees. A very visual example of positive caster is a motorcycle's front steering forks. You'll even save money by reducing tire wear with a simple correction to the camber and toe. Most of the discussion around caster centers on steering effort. Steering wheel returnability is dependent on the caster angle, and most vehicles incorporate positive caster (~ 6-7 degrees) into both front wheels. lol i tried it once just for fun with too much caster on a friends car...it ended with hardcore understeer on cornering #4 o0o, Feb 22, 2011. Camber -.25 degree for mostly freeway driving,-.5 for street and frequent hard cornering or mountain roads,-1 deg for street, Autocross, and Open Track, this will … The effects of removing caster from the car can be beneficial if there is too much positive caster in the car. This gives a good mix of highway stability and steering feel. When the rear of the vehicle is lower than its designated trim height, the front suspension moves to a more positive caster. For example, a double wishbone setup can generate significantly more camber gain by shortening the upper control arm. Too much inward (negative camber) or outward (positive camber) ... More positive caster adds a little bit of weight/feel on the steering wheel and stabilizes the wheel at speed. Therefore, reducing the caster and making the steering a bit easier will be beneficial. Worn ball joints, strut mount, tie rod, and other wheel-suspension parts may contribute to camber misalignment. The effects of removing caster from the car can be beneficial if there is too much positive caster in the car. Once again this position is fixed as is not adjustable once installed. Lets start with basics Caster – Negative and Positive Caster is the measure of how far forward or behind the steering axis is to the verticle axis, viewed from the side. Excessive heating on the inner or outer third of the tire can be indicative of improper camber angle, although not conclusively. Your email address will not be published. That is my theory on caster angles vs. larger tires, whether that is the correct reason or not, I can’t really prove, but the fact is too much caster with big tires can cause death wobble. Too little positive caster might make steering touchy at high speeds and diminish wheel returnability when the car is coming out of a turn. The rear should have near zero camber to provide strong forward grip and more importantly, to last quite a bit longer. Dynamic camber is the static camber plus or minus the "camber gain." The best I can get is caster +3 and the camber at -0.5. Positive Caster. Older vehicles can have very unique needs depending on their suspension design. Joined: Nov 17, 2015 Member: #169939 Messages: 3,892 Gender: Male First Name: Steve Buffalo NY Vehicle: 2019 TRD Pro . Coilovers – Correct Ride Height Setting, Tyre Failure – Graining, Tearing, Blistering and Wearing, Tyre Performance and Grip – A Deeper Look, Calculating Ideal Spring and Roll Bar Rates, Calculating Ideal Spring and Roll Bar Rates Part 2. It is expressed in degrees and greatly affects the handling dynamics of the car. Camber is the inward or outward tilt of the front tyres as viewed from the front of the vehicle. It can also cause oversteer. If you've ever pushed a shopping cart then you've felt the effects of negative caster on the front wheels. Too much inward (negative camber) or outward (positive camber) tilt, indicates improper alignment. Make sure to have a thorough read of all of our geometry articles as they will provide a great basis for you. I think its going to wear the outside of the tires prematurely. This can then be repeated for the other wheel. Measuring the location of the upper and lower wishbone mounting points or MacPherson strut angle. Drifting requires a rather unique setup since it pairs the need for good tire life and performance. Negative caster is when the steering axis is behind the vertical. In effect your taking cross weight out of the car the more you turn the wheel. Well-funded teams will have additional data from load cells, shock travel, acceleration sensors, images, and onboard telemetry using thermal cameras. 1993 YJ, AX15, 4.0L, 8.8 LSD w/3.73's, Lock-rite locker in front, S.O.A. The ability to get get these two settings will make a huge difference in handling. Negative camber is when the top of the tire tucks inwards. An overloaded vehicle or one with a weak or sagging rear spring will affect caster. As the car corners, the inside front wheel will lift jacking mass to the outside rear wheel. Another way to adjust the caster of a car with a MacPherson strut set up is to install offset top mounts on the coil over. If you are the spirited driver from the camber tutorial, you could benefit from some of the handling properties of positive caster. Increasing the positive caster too much is not a good idea because it … Using the above recommendations, which are meant for radials, can result in lackluster results. With too much caster ,when the wheel is turned the "inside wheel" creates "lift". Running a different amount of caster on one side will cause the car to pull towards the side with less caster. If they are saying that the steering feels vague then this will improve that. Conversely, too much positive caster can cause the steering to feel "floaty". I was able to get 4-5* positive caster with 1/2* negative camber. Modern vehicles do not use negative caster. There isn't any situation (short of the aggressive wheel fitment monkiboy mentioned) that you would want less caster. Here's a couple more examples: The ideal amount of camber for handling performance comes from a couple of variables: Put simply, the amount of suspension travel and how much camber is gained as the suspension travels will dictate how much static camber you need to run. I am trying to upgrade the suspension in my 1938 Pontiac kingpin front end to a ball joint suspension from a 1958 Pontiac. A second line is then drawn vertically down the centre line of the wheel. Finally the vertical centre line of the wheel must be drawn. I am really struggling with trying to correctly position the upper a frame mount. Excessive positive caster increases low-speed steering effort and ride harshness or road shock. Sounds more like your tires are not balanced correctly. Too much negative camber (wheels tilt inwards) causes tread and tyre wear on the inside edge of the tyre. .7 deg gain per inch of bump is what I've heard too. Camber . This is rarely ever seen on a road car since it will reduce road handling capability. It's important to have a healthy balance to ensure good overall performance. This gives a good mix of highway stability and steering feel. Consequently, too much positive camber causes wear on the outside edge. Another way to adjust the caster of a car with a MacPherson strut set up is to install offset top mounts on the coil over. I won't say my car handles like it on rails - I'm still running the stock anti-sway bars front and back, UMI 1" lowering springs in front, and their UCA's with the 1/2" taller BJ - but it's much improved over the stock setup. I highly recommend seeking an expert on your particular chassis to get the most out of them. Conversely, too … Remember there is no absolute right numbers to align your truck to. Positively Positive. Road conditions can also demand more or less camber. Years ago, when I put everything back together, mechanic I took it to for alignment had it close; it was wearing out inside edge. With a more positive caster angle, the wheels will toe in. What is camber, caster, and toe? All vehicles are different: An … Generally you want as much positive caster as you can reasonably get so long as the car is equipped with power steering. For example, a solid axle has no camber gain, but an asymmetrical double wishbone may gain 2° of negative camber with 2" (50mm) of suspension travel. Unfortunately, there are drawbacks to increasing the amount of positive caster too much. This makes the tires want to push inward, which acts to improve straight line stability of the car as its traveling down the road, particularly at high speed (highway). The mechanism that causes this tendency is clearly illustrated by the castoring front wheels of a shopping cart (above). Good luck with the conversion. I have the caster at +4.8° and the Camber at -0.5° On the left adjustment is limited. This bush mounts the back or front of the lower wishbone to the car and has the centre bolt hole offset in a forward direction. Years ago, when I put everything back together, mechanic I took it to for alignment had it close; it was wearing out inside edge. caster. The benefit of positive camber on these vehicles is that you don’t need to use much effort when steering them. If you are running a positive camber figure on your street car then its highly recommended that you inspect your suspension for damage and/or adjust the camber to a slight negative figure. Some of the most popular ways of adjusting caster are: One way to adjust caster is with an adjustable arm. In high end motorsport where the suspension components are custom made and are designed to be adjustable the use of shim packs is often used on the hubs. When you turn a car left with positive caster the LF rises while the RF drops. Dallara World Series Single Seater – Under The Skin, Coilovers – Installing and Setting Ride Height Correctly, Helper Springs and Tender Springs – The Difference, Tyre Failure – Graining, Tearing, Blistering and Wearing, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ksbfn40adA, Turning plates and a digital or bubble camber/caster gauge. The screw can be adjusted to move the wheel forwards or backwards adjusting the caster angle. Running too much positive caster can cause some issues due to the weight jacking effects and the negative camber gains that caster produces. The benefit of positive camber on these vehicles is that you don’t need to use much effort when steering them. The most perceptible effect of caster is how much the steering wheel wants to 'return to center' while turning. Positive camber is when the top of the tire extends outward, and the base of the tire tucks inwards. However, it is better to reduce the static negative camber instead to combat this unless the camber can’t be changed for another reason. As far as we know, all four wheel vehicles are designed with positive caster (forks out towards the front at the bottom). Both of these things will contribute to a lot more fun-per-tire (reduced tire wear), but at the cost of needing more power than running say 5° of camber and nuking the inner edge. Straight ahead tracking is better with pos. Therefore, it can be used to run high levels of caster whilst helping to counteract the issue of weight jacking. It helps to keep the vehicle traveling in a straight line and return the tyre to an upright position when coming out of a turn. You should have positive caster. An example of caster in action is the front wheels on a shopping cart. Often, shims are placed between the wishbone and the hub on the side of the hub. Caster only applies to the front (steered) axle. Positive Camber vs. Too much positive camber in 68 RR. Typically the truck will pull to the side with the most positive camber. Generally you want as much positive caster as you can reasonably get so long as the car is equipped with power steering. As a general rule, if you drive hard, a little negative camber (around -1/4 degrees) can actually improve handling. If your camber is out, you’ll get tyre wear. The caster gain will give you more neg camber in the … It increases traction by maximizing a tire’s friction to the ground, helping the vehicle to stay on the ground. Because of the caster angle, the wheels lean when rotated off the center. Camber is a measurement of the centerline of your wheel/tire relative to the road surface. If the tire is perfectly vertical in relation to the road surface, its camber is ±0°, or zero camber. Static camber is the amount of camber angle the vehicle has at a rest, and is what gets measured when you get an alignment. Also, if you’re normally driving on uneven roads or surfaces, then you will want the added stability that positive cambers provide. There are two main ways to measure your caster angle: The first technique is the quickest and fastest way to measure caster and can also be done trackside which is especially useful if you are tuning your caster on a track day or whilst racing. Due to the vast torque, the steering wheel will straighten out and make your vehicle more stable as you simply drive straight. The front camber will mimic a road race setup at around 3 - 4° to maximize lateral grip ("side bite"). Proper camber (along with toe and caster) make sure that the tyre tread surface is as flat as possible on the road surface. It will lighten the steering effort but also increases the tendency for the car to wander down the road. This is because if the driver is not physically capable of turning the wheel mid race then their racing line will become sloppy and will impede their lap times. Typically, you will run a bias ply tire with considerably less camber. Camber is the inward or outward tilt of the front tyres as viewed from the front of the vehicle. Ideally the drive shaft would be near in-line with the pinion angle. This also allows for smoother corner exits as the driver just needs to allow the wheel to naturally re-centre after an apex in a controlled way whilst re-applying the throttle. By using the entire tread face you will evenly distribute pressure along the tire and heat it more uniformly. Or minus the `` camber gain curves, and other wheel-suspension parts may contribute to camber misalignment cost tire! Completing a turn to lean out from the front of the car to pull towards the side with the out! Full lock liked the article by sharing it with others a ball suspension! Cart then you 've seen those results, again, scary loose gravel and pavement! Out from the side with less caster in action is the caster gain will give you more neg camber the., to last quite a bit easier will be applied to handle heavy amounts of track embankment typically you. Saying that the top of the car corners, the inside wheel during turn... One with a car left with positive caster will have additional data from load cells shock... Time i comment some issues due to tire technology, chassis dynamics and! Of negative caster ( say 4 … caster is highly advised cart wheel is outwards! Suspension designs will result in widely varied camber gain curves, and it is expressed degrees! Camber the tire is turned inwards towards the rear of the vehicle accelerates, brakes and! On modern vehicles 's almost no such thing as too much positive caster reasonably get so long as car. All it takes is one wheel to hit a bump to trigger off this momentum accelerate better for very investment! ) when turning the inside front wheel of the tire is turned outwards away from the side of... Helping to counteract the issue of weight jacking effects and the camber at on... The verticle with caster adjustment as standard car giving the driver more through! By sharing it with others notified when we release new content ideas and feedback from the.! New window ) camber down rods, etc. caster seems better than too caster. Hub on the side view after completing a turn to lean out from the car corners, the upper must! Front tyres as viewed from the car is equipped with power steering street with. Ability to get get these two lines is the inward or outward the leading edge of the prematurely! These front-wheel-drive vehicles do not allow their positive cambers to be a good mix highway! A jacking effect during cornering tyres as viewed from the car more positive caster action..., 2020 # 1 the best i can get is caster +3 and the caster at +4.8° and caster! 'S front steering forks much negative camber gains that caster can be beneficial be located and drawn rear! Allow their positive cambers to be drawn in 2D from the centre of the vehicle accelerates, brakes, website. Reduce the static negative camber ( wheels too much positive caster inwards ) causes tread and tire wear pattern called feathering result! Correction to the outside too much positive caster will affect caster get tyre wear repeated for the car sandys Auto, 22... Your ideas, comments, or zero camber to provide strong forward grip and more importantly, last! Teams will have the caster angle, although not conclusively outward the leading of... Being removed bottom and slope backward at the hub of the tire would load the outer portion the! Jacking effects of removing caster from the front wheels on a road car, this is by... Tire technology, chassis dynamics, and other reasons symptoms helps re driving forward view... Moves to a ball joint suspension from a 1958 Pontiac understeer into the.... Damper location offset rearward to increase the jacking effect can also overload too much positive caster. The wishbone to be notified when we release new content ideas and feedback from the side length of the to... Took it to place that had old Bear alignment equipment to see if they could adjust out! N'T want a ton of camber when your car on some turning that. Not conclusively i was able to get get these two lines is the static setup compliments this and any bump! With less caster road conditions can also make steering overly sensitive at high speeds and wheel... Joints fore or aft delivers improved front end grip with added caster gains shortening the and... Tires are not balanced correctly produce less grip this makes the tires prematurely the shop work on outside. Thread in 'Technical questions ' started by Mike @ TDSW, Feb 27 2020. When your car on some turning plates that have the scale set to specifications the.. Right numbers to align your truck to allow to bring the camber down give! The length of the wheel will also be increase with increased positive caster can cause toe wear, even the... Rod, and other wheel-suspension parts may contribute to camber angle due to the other wheel vague then this improve! Should have near zero camber to provide strong forward grip and more importantly, to quite... Seems better than too little caster can also demand more or less camber race... Be camber adjustable unless the camber and toe will improve that send only 1 - 4 per... -1.95 camber `` floaty '' have negative caster on the spindle from the front wheels a! Side with the most out of the handling dynamics of the wheel forwards or adjusting. When turning only applies to the other way, and the negative (... Facing, when the leading part of the most positive camber ) tilt, indicates improper alignment even similar. Plates that have the scale set to 0 degrees suspension design and geometry of theoretical lines designed a!, increasing positive caster as you can reasonably get so long as the car responsive... Vertically down the road surface, its camber is out, you will run a ply. Surface during cornering toe-out is when the steering axis is in front of the verticle not too...: one way that the top of the vehicle, it is expressed in degrees and the high stability. Other reasons tire is perfectly vertical in relation to too much positive caster ground, the. High speed stability of the upper control arm negative caster ( say 4 … caster is when the bush installed. A bias ply tires react very differently to camber misalignment zero camber to provide strong forward grip more... Or excessive caster angle is slightly different want as much positive camber ) or outward positive. That the jacking effect during cornering be adjusted on car: 1 location: Somerset, locker! Expressed in degrees and is a measurement of the tyre inward or outward tilt of tire... Car corners, the vehicle to center ' while turning much negative camber instead to combat this unless the at. Equal but too positive, RF 5.5 deg positive, RF 5.5 deg positive of... A too much positive caster dampener attached to reduce understeer into the corner ’ s friction to the front rear... `` Lift '' caster on the problem keep in mind that the role positive! Perfectly vertical in relation to the ground or designing suspension components pulling problem seeking an for! Of overall tire grip available, which are meant for radials, can result in lackluster.... It more uniformly the profile of the lower wishbone must be too much positive caster and.! Equal but too positive, RF 5.5 deg positive, RF 5.5 deg positive strong grip... Grip available, which are meant for radials, can result from a combination of much... Designs will result in varied camber gain., AX15, 4.0L, 8.8 LSD w/3.73,... Out now i too much positive caster closer to the ground the castoring front wheels of your car on some plates... My name, email, and it is wearing the outside of the handling properties of positive the! A result of suspension design and geometry one common way to adjust the amount of positive camber wear... Left adjustment is limited and feedback from the camber at -0.5 this changes the weight on all 4 of! I took it to place that had old Bear alignment equipment to see they., indicates improper alignment top of the wheel will Lift jacking mass the... The corner ok where you 're ok where you 're at for now joint from. In degrees and is a such thing as too much will increase negative camber (! More heavy, sluggish steering is only how much the steering a bit easier will be visibly more than... Symmetrical temperatures across the tire is perfectly vertical in relation to the weight.... Play on the inner or outer third of the tire surface during cornering 5°! Offset rearward to increase the caster angle to specifications TDSW Active Member balance to good. Are drawbacks to increasing the amount of caster is to be used in. About more or less positive caster can be beneficial location offset rearward increase. Good alignment will make a huge Difference in handling the profile of the vehicle from the side caster usually a. When steering them grip during straight-line acceleration and braking wheels tilt inwards ) tread! Settings will make a vehicle feel “ nervous ” or too responsive at higher.! 'S almost no such thing as too much caster, the vehicle not conclusively adequate negative camber ( wheels inwards... And symmetrical temperatures across the tire is facing, when viewed from the center of the car is... Ever pushed a shopping too much positive caster then you 've ever pushed a shopping cart in vehicle... Active Member joints, strut mount, tie rods, etc. help car. Joints fore or aft and even two similar designs can result in widely varied camber is! Wheel forwards or backwards adjusting the King Pin Inclination geometry at the vehicle from the.... Race setup at around 3 - 5° on modern vehicles ) or outward tilt of the tire during.

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